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Old 24th March 2011, 11:54   #21
Blackcloud
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Default Re: Looks Like a Model - Moves Like a Toy

Train stopping in fiddleyard: It stops dead when it runs onto the isolated track except where flywheel drive is involved, then it continues for another inch or so. This is totally unrealistic but it is off stage. What happens in the fiddleyard is not on public view and is purely functional. Just as the goings on in the wings of a theatre or behind the camera on a film set are of no consequence to the play or film as far as the audience are concerned.

Damage in collisions: Can be substantial, especially if the train is derailed and ends up off the layout. I run trains in various scales, the larger ones are heavy, very heavy in some cases, and they do break more than buffers and couplings when they hit each other (or the floor). Even if they did not a train with broken buffers and couplings has to be withdrawn from traffic and repaired, often requiring spare parts, so depleting the stock available for use on the layout regardless of the cost involved. Break your own trains if you want, but I'd rather keep mine intact thank you!

The public: Invitations to shows are usually on the basis of how a layout looks, operates and pleases the public in general. Just where do you think the money comes from to pay for the events? If the public don't go to shows the shows stop happening because nobody is paying for the hire of the venue, insurance, expenses and all the other outgoings involved with staging a show, let alone turning a surplus for club funds or to go to charity. And, on the subject of charity, publicising the fact that a show is in aid of a well respected concern will often bring more people through the door than would otherwise be interested in model railways. I know this from experience running a show for three consecutive years and raising well in excess of three thousand pounds for charity.

The best advice I can give you is to people watch next time you go to a show. There may be an appreciative audience around a small shunting layout, providing it has something moving on it and/or is well detailed and operating, as your OP refers to, in reasonably realistic manner... Then stand and watch a roundy roundy where there's something moving virtually all the time. The "Ma, Pa & Kids" element of the audience will be found there more often than not.

I'm not advocating that all layouts should be roundy roundies, indeed the CRM modules create an end to end which also attracts the family audience as much as it does serious modellers, but a show should have variety of layouts to cater for all aspects of the public... Again because it is the public who pay to see the layouts.

The photo of Toby with the shorty coach is a still. The event where it was taken was extremely busy and I did not get an opportunity to make videos because I had trouble getting close to the front of the layout. This was the event where the kids put their own train on the track and we were running trains blind for a lot of the time because we could not see the length of the line due to the crowd around the layout.
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Old 24th March 2011, 13:02   #22
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Default Re: Looks Like a Model - Moves Like a Toy

: Small Layout Scrapbook - back on line
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Old 24th March 2011, 20:29   #23
MotionMan
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Default Re: Looks Like a Model - Moves Like a Toy

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What happens in the fiddleyard is not on public view .....
Well of course. What you do in your fiddle yard is your concern.

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Damage in collisions: Can be substantial .....
Oh really? Well, I hope that means the operator considers it all the more important they pay attention rather than rely on the emergency stop button. If they are talking to a member of the public they should either slow down or stop a working train.

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The public: Invitations to shows are usually on the basis of how a layout looks, operates and pleases the public in general .....
I still don't understand the relevance of this. I haven't been recommending less movement to that extent, and most of the public interest from what I've seen is adult.

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The best advice I can give you is to people watch next time you go to a show. There may be an appreciative audience around a small shunting layout, providing it has something moving on it and/or is well detailed and operating, as your OP refers to, in reasonably realistic manner... Then stand and watch a roundy roundy where there's something moving virtually all the time. The "Ma, Pa & Kids" element of the audience will be found there more often than not.
I'm getting confused now. I don't remember mentioning any dislike for 'roundy roundy' layouts or a preference for shunting layouts. I've got nothing against 'roundy roundy' layouts. Actually, the biggest crowd I've seen around a layout recently (kids aswell) was a shunting layout. It was O gauge and they had sound and steam and the locos were moving very very slowely (the Macclesfield show).

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........but a show should have variety of layouts to cater for all aspects of the public... Again because it is the public who pay to see the layouts.
Again, I don't see the relevance of this. I don't think I've mentioned anything about variety of layouts, or even anything at all about the type of layouts. My concern has only been with the motion.

Incidentally I've just watched my cat jump on my collection of model vehicles. That'll be interesting when I get a model train set running. I'm going to have to deal with 'attack of the giant cat'. And be assured I still won't be using that emergency stop button.
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Old 24th March 2011, 23:55   #24
Blackcloud
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Default Re: Looks Like a Model - Moves Like a Toy

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Again, I don't see the relevance of this. I don't think I've mentioned anything about variety of layouts, or even anything at all about the type of layouts. My concern has only been with the motion.
From your original post...
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... it has always amazed me that virtually all model railway enthusiasts are not enough concerned about realistic motion, ...
So, what is unrealistic about a train running through countryside without stopping? This is what happens on most continuous run and long end to end exhibition layouts where station goods yards are rarely, if ever, shunted. But the same applies in real life. A wayside station will be served by one or two freight trains a day, the rest will run through without stopping. The same goes for passenger trains, on a main line most will not call at the size of station which can be realistically modelled in most cases. for example with my local line, trains coming from the south stop at Crewe then run through to Wilmslow, only the local calls at the intermediate stations, and the expresses outnumber the locals two or three to one.

Therefore big roundy roundies and long end to ends can be seen as operating realistically, even though the trains rarely stop while on stage.

As for pleasing the general public as well as Mr Railway-Expert, I'll say this one more time - THEY PAY! That makes them the boss, so what they want is paramount. Mr Railway-Expert will perhaps appreciate a bit of shunting, as do a few youngsters though they're a minority, but Ma, Pa & Kids (who, despite what you keep saying, are the majority of most show audiences) are happy to see a rapid succession of trains paraded through the scenic area, and if that's what they want that should be what they get.

I'll watch with interest to see what happens when you take a layout to a show, when is your next booking?
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Old 25th March 2011, 00:19   #25
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Default Re: Looks Like a Model - Moves Like a Toy

Uuuuuh????
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Old 25th March 2011, 03:01   #26
RW James
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Default Re: Looks Like a Model - Moves Like a Toy

Thank you, Bob

I've done a fair number of shows, most of them with no entry fees (set up in a shopping mall) and by my experience, the vast majority of the audience just wants to see trains running and don't care much how they start or stop.

I love to see a train move realistically as well - but to be honest, few of my engines could manage that much realism. It just isn't a priority for me.

But I, too, look forward to seeing a video of MotionMan's trains starting and stopping. I'm sure it will be a site to behold.
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Old 26th March 2011, 09:58   #27
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Default Re: Looks Like a Model - Moves Like a Toy

Sorry Blackcloud, that's the only answer I could give late on Thursday (out all yesterday) because I was totally lost by your post's relevance to my thread. You are referring to the amount of times a train stops at a station whereas I am referring to how the stops are actually performed i.e. like a model or like a toy. To quote myself in Post 23 "I don't remember mentioning any dislike for 'roundy roundy' layouts or a preference for shunting layouts. I've got nothing against 'roundy roundy' layouts". Please quote me if I have but I don't remember making such a statement.

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I'll watch with interest to see what happens when you take a layout to a show, when is your next booking?
Ah ah .... that will be quite a while. I have't got a layout at all yet. Shortly I hope to have about a metre of O gauge track layed, but I dream that one day I might, and I'll be standing there ..... all on my own ..... talking to myself.

I dream of using as many gauges as possible, but all in O scale (1:43, even any American stock converted to 1:43 as much as I can) i.e. HO / OO gauge will be narrow gauge, N gauge will be miniature, and I might even use T and Z gauge (if by then they've managed to make decoders small enough) to represent a kind of garden railway where the line is lifted above the ground and the people sit astride the train.

Yes, I know what you're thinking .... it would have to be a big layout to get all that in without looking crammed and unreal. Well, in my house I may be able to do it but it might also be possible in a mobile exhibition section.

I also dream of making my road transport move, but not in the toy fashion that Faller apparently make them move. They will move in a realistic manner and I would like to be able to even give them soft enough suspension so that they noticibly bounce appropriately, especially big items such as buses and trucks. I even have ideas of making such things as trucks go over a dusty landscape and kick up some dust. Do you remember Thunderbirds? Do you remember how they made their vehicles kick up dust? Such a layout would have to have a certain amount of automation and I'm going to a demo on Monday at DCC Supplies about a new system of automation.

Anyway, that's my dream. Whether I'll achieve such a layout is quite another thing.

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....... the vast majority of the audience just wants to see trains running and don't care much how they start or stop.
I find it puzzling that the audience want realism in all other visual details except motion.

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But I, too, look forward to seeing a video of MotionMan's trains starting and stopping. I'm sure it will be a site to behold.
By the looks of things I might be one of the few beholding such a sight, although that slow shunting layout at the Macclesfield show (Post 23) does give me hope. Again, I suppose I must repeat, I've got no preference for shunting layouts and nothing against trains getting dizzy on a 'roundy roundy' layout, although I'd prefer it if they didn't travel at a scale speed of about 100mph or above, but I haven't seen that kind of running for a long while anyway.
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Old 26th March 2011, 15:59   #28
RW James
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Default Re: Looks Like a Model - Moves Like a Toy

Good luck to you - I really am looking forward to see what you can do.

It really comes down to everyone has their own priorities. Some people just love shunting and that is their goal. Others like to just run trains. My layout (which I intend to take to shows) will have a roundy-round aspect that I will set running, while I make up trains in the yard.

As for smooth starting locomotives - I love them as much as anyone, but I just don't have the skill (or the money) to put into getting a dream loco. I have to be satisfied with something that just runs and stays on the track.

As a matter of fact, this has been such a problem for me that at first, I just built static dioramas so I wouldn't have to deal with these operational issues. But after I saw other people with the same problem, it encouraged me to try.

But honestly, if someone had come along and said "You're doing this wrong! Why can't you make your models like I think they should be?" I may have taken up stamp collecting.

When I look at someone else's work, I always manage to find something I like about it - even if it's not the way I would have done it. It takes a great deal of courage to share yourself this way and that alone should be appreciated.

So I hope you find what you want from this great and diverse hobby - but may you always look upon other modeler's work with a kind eye and word.
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Old 27th March 2011, 09:18   #29
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Good luck to you - I really am looking forward to see what you can do.
Excellent - thank you, but I think you'll have a long wait. Although I've got some locos I haven't yet got a controller. So I can't move my locos at all yet, realisitcally or unrealistically


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But honestly, if someone had come along and said "You're doing this wrong! Why can't you make your models like I think they should be?" I may have taken up stamp collecting.
Ha ha ... well, I don't think I'm that cheeky. I will occasionally ask an operator "Can you make them stop and start realistically?". I don't know whether or not they are offended. To me it just seems the obvious question to ask when the model is otherwise so well detailed. I suppose it's a bit like someone having a beautifull car, not a scratch on it, gorgeous shiny chrome, white walled wheels, lovely plush interior, but nothing works very well. Everytime you take a lift in the car it starts with a jolt, it coughs and splutters its way down the road and stops with a jolt everytime. Would you not have an overwhelming urge to ask a similarly obvious question? Especially if it had been like that for years and it seemed the owner had no intention of doing anything about it?

He kept cleaning it though!

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So I hope you find what you want from this great and diverse hobby - but may you always look upon other modeler's work with a kind eye and word.
Thank you, and I will do my best

PS. I can't open the Narrow Gauge board today. It keeps freezing Explorer. I saw the replies yesterday but now I can't get in there, yet I can get into this board. Very strange.
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